Something I only just realized about the Arthur Saga-

[mary_j_59]

This is passed on from eleanor X, who had posted the video to her own livejournal. It really is a terrific song; I can't get it out of my head, and the lyrics (in spite of a couple of infelicitous words like "puppetile" - why not "puppet-like" or simply "puppet's"?) are pretty astonishing. If you watch this, consider the relationship described between Morgana and young Mordred, and then go here:
http://sigune.livejournal.com/93168.html#cutid1

Follow the links for "the Darkest Hour" and read the whole thing - and you will see, quite clearly, what I only just realized. The Arthur legend is, at heart, a revenge tragedy about a seriously disordered family. And young Mordred - if you read him as the instrument of his mother's revenge; there are other ways of reading him - is actually not so much a villain, as the last victim of this family. Why didn't I see this before?

Anyway, the song and the comic are both terrific, and I look forward to reactions to them both. ) BTw, the little fellow who plays Mordred is much, much closer to my idea of young Harry than Dan Radcliffe. For one thing, he is slender and actually has greenish eyes.

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Comments

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I usually go with the reading that Mordred was yet another "orphaned" child in the stories. The theme repeats over and over - feelings of illegitimacy and the desire to overcompensate. There's a nice book out, modern, that shows this. It's called The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell. The thing that makes this book interesting is that Cornwell was an orphan and recognized certain similarities between his desire to please and Arthur's actions in the earlier stories. My mother was an orphan too and once it was mentioned and I started thinking about it, that reading seems to make sense.

That said, Mordred is a victim. I would say his mother dehumanized him but, in the strictest sense, did she ever think of him as human? He was a tool, a weapon, against Arthur. He was payback against Uther and possibly Ygraine.

I suppose that wasn't such a big deal back in those days. Children meant hands to work the farm or helpers in the shop; they meant prestige in number and in sex. It was a duty to produce children. Mordred was Arthur's only child - he never had a child with Gwenivere, their marriage was impotent - but his child with Morgana was both outside of marriage and incestuous. A non-entity.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Ygraine - definitely! I don't remember if you've been following Sigune's comic, but she tells Ygraine's story there, and the poor woman is treated barbarously. Further, her young daughters know it.

But the paragraph where you say, about Mordred's mistreatment: I suppose that wasn't such a big deal back in those days. - I have to say I disagree. I've seen this argued before; that people in earlier days, with higher rates of child mortality, did not love their children as we do now. And I don't see how or why we should assume this. After all, Arthurian Britain was as much a Christian society as Britain today - arguably more so - and I don't think human nature changes that much in historical times. People are people. But that Mordred was completely without any legal status, and that people would consider him particularly a sinner because he was conceived in sin - that part is sadly true. The poor kid! But that was the point of this post, anyway; he's a victim of both of his parents, who are acting out their own agenda through him.

I haven't read the Cornwell book you mention. I'm afraid I've avoided that author because I don't like war stories. it does sound interesting, though. I can recommend another Mordred tale by a different author, though the title's similar: The Winter Prince by Elizabeth Wein. In this one, Mordred is tutor to Arthur's legitimate son and heir. It's clear to Mordred, as well as to the reader, that the older boy has the qualities of kingship while the younger one, the legitimate heir, does not. Of course, the book postulates that Arthur did have other children, which, as you point out, isn't part of the original legend. That makes Mordred's dismissal by his parents that much worse, in my mind.

Thanks for your comment.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Mordred was completely without any legal status, and that people would consider him particularly a sinner because he was conceived in sin

Correct me if I'm wrong, but - didn't Mordred pass for King Lot's son? I'd have to check Malory again, but I don't think it is generally known at court that he is Arthur's son. Consequently, he had the status of the youngest Lothian/Orkney prince. (In Geoffrey of Monmouth, he really is Lot's youngest.) That places him well behind Gawain in the line of succession, but still, there are worse situations.

Cornwell's trilogy is pretty good - I'd recommend it too. I mean, it's not T. H. White-good, but it's a very entertaining read, with a great Arthur and a strong Guinevere (and a silly little Gawain, but... *g*).

I'm curious about The Winter Prince; I'll look it up.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I've seen this argued before; that people in earlier days, with higher rates of child mortality, did not love their children as we do now.

I'm not suggesting that they didn't love their children (with the obvious legendary exception we're talking about) but that children were a necessary commodity that people pretty much had to have. Even if they didn't want kids, which would, I'm totally guessing here, be unusual due to cultural influences, they had to have kids. It was a duty to reproduce. It was necessary to the family business. It was necessary to the eventual declining years of Mom and Dad, given that they had declining years when they were too weak to work and didn't drop on the job. There was still a flavor of commodity somewhere even though they did love their kids.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Hee! Any idea where the song comes from? It's amazingly appropriate and kind of fascinating.

Is the show any good? All I can tell from the video is that it has a beautiful Morgana and a cute little Mordred :). Do they make Mordred Arthur's child? If so, how do they explain the relationship between Arthur and Morgana (I assume there is no Morgause)?

The revenge tragedy - that depends on the angle you take, I think. In most (especially older) versions of the story, it is not said that Ygraine is unhappy about the things Uther does. She mourns her husband, but she is not shown as resenting Uther. (Of course there is not exactly a lot of characterisation, which I personally interpret as an invitation to do as I please with the material ;-).)

To me, the revenge tragedy certainly makes sense, also because it offers a motivation to some characters that would otherwise be - well, motivationless. Morgana is probably the best example. She is said to hate Guinevere and/or to hate Arthur and, by extension, (most of) his knights, but the old texts are usually pretty vague about the why of it all. I think it's mostly modern authors who bring in the idea that she (and/or Morgause) takes revenge for her mother (and, in T. H. White, for the Gaels) and hates Arthur purely because he is Uther's son.

Errr... I seem to have sort of lost my point along the way, but I guess what I was trying to say is that I'm not sure to what extent the revenge motif was present before Malory came along. In any case, I'm rather partial to it myself ;-).

Thanks very much for reccing my story! I'm really very glad you are enjoying it :D.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

About the show, I must confess that I can't say, never having seen it! I have a friend who's crazy about it, but she seems to be into it for the Merlin/Arthur ship (in case you couldn't guess, Merlin is the thin dark teen and Arthur the husky blond who is talking to young Mordred at the end). So it obviously doesn't take Arthurian canon very seriously.

As to the song, I actually bought this one on iTunes. ) The singer is called Heather Dale, and she seems to have written a lot about the Arthurian characters.

The revenge motif, tragic though it is, does make sense of characters in the saga who would otherwise be blanks. Speaking of which - making sense, that is - I do highly recommend Elizabeth Wein's Winter Prince to you as well. IF you can find it, that is! It's astonishing to me that it's out of print; it is intense, intelligent, morally and emotionally coherent (though disturbing) and very well written.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm going to try and get my hands on a copy :).

Wah! That song is catchy indeed!

[anne-arthur.livejournal.com]

This is good, isn't it? I don't remember the song from the TV programme at all, though: was it actually written for it?

About 'Merlin' (to answer Sigune's question): it is now into its second series in Britain, and I continue to be surprised at how well-made and well-thought-out it is. I love it - I find that it is something I look forward to every week. But it is definitely not for those who subscribe to One True Version of the Arthur story! It presupposes a basic knowledge of the story - when Arthur smuggles Mordred out of Camelot against his father's wishes in the episode featured in the video, for example, you are clearly meant to know that he is saving the boy who will grow up to kill him - but it is very much its own take on the legend. So no, here Mordred is not Arthur's child - as Arthur is only about 18-20, he would not really be old enough to have a son this age! Instead he is the son of a druid, a wizard - the man we see near the beginning of the clip. We have not seen his mother. His father is put to death by Uther, who is paranoid about magic in any form, and Mordred flees into the castle. Morgana, Uther's ward, who is not aware of her own magic powers, feels herself drawn to him, and hides him at great risk to herself: eventually she persuades Arthur to smuggle him back to the other druids and to safety.

So, as you can see, a very different take on the Arthur legend! But if you can bring yourself to see it as 'different' rather than 'wrong', it is entertaining, and not without its virtues. Arthur, for example, is so exactly what James Potter should have been - arrogant, spoilt, something of a bully, but also very aware of the duties as well as the privileges of his position, always trying to do the right thing, and unquestionably brave. Uther's hostility to magic is implacable, and increasingly paranoid - he will kill any witch or wizard without hesitation, and Merlin and Morgana are in constant danger of discovery - but at the same time we do see how magic has corrupted this world, and get some idea of what lies behind his fear. It might be worth watching as much as a commentary on the world of Harry Potter as anything else!

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks for the info on the show, Anne! You are the second of my friends to recommend it highly, and it does sound like something Deirdre and I could get happily addicted to. Not sure how to find it here in the U.S. though - perhaps I'll check the SiFi lineup.

And what you say about Arthur as James - yes. I will never understand either why Rowling had to diminish her characters as she did, or how some fans can fail to see they are diminished. It would have been a relief to me if James had been as you describe Arthur.

About the song: I don't really know what inspired the artist to write it, but a fan of the show put the video together and it's just wonderfully apt. It certainly is a good ad both for this woman's music and for the episode!

[anne-arthur.livejournal.com]

I hope you're not disappointed, if you do find it! But it's worth starting at the beginning - episodes do build on earlier ones. Arthur starts off as very unlikeable - but then rounds out and becomes considerably more complex. On the whole I think the characters are very well done - and generally well acted.

And that song is lovely!

[sigune.livejournal.com]

Oh, it does sound interesting! If it's still on, I'll have to give it a try. *is curious*

Mind you, if I look at the story I'm not at all sure why the characters are called Arthur, Merlin, Morgana and Mordred. It sounds like a fantasy series that is just about entirely unrelated to anything Arthurian XD. That's not necessarily bad, of course. But my first impression is that the creators are using well-known names purely to draw the audience in...

I am quite in love with an Arthurian television series of which the last season has just been aired in France: Kaamelott. It started out as a very low-budget production, oddly enough formatted in 3-minute episodes of comical Pythonesque sketches, but meanwhile it has turned into a grand and occasionally moving saga (the last three "seasons" are scheduled to be films on the big screen) as the creator, who also plays Arthur, really got into his character. Kaamelott takes quite a few liberties with the Arthurian source material - for example, we haven't seen the faintest hint of Mordred yet, Morgana's role is negligeable (she is certainly not a baddie), and important things happen that I can't mention without giving away major spoilers - but it is much more recognisable than what you describe. Kaamelott is playing very cleverly with Arthurian lore, whereas Merlin seems to be playing cleverly without it :).

[puckling.livejournal.com]

Hello friend of a friend!

Mind you, if I look at the story I'm not at all sure why the characters are called Arthur, Merlin, Morgana and Mordred.

I pipe up because I was actually asked almost this exact same question and this is my response (http://puckling.livejournal.com/24929.html#cutid1). It was written in the middle of season one so somethings have changed since then (I think they've actually moved closer to traditional Arthuriana this season) and kinda rambly, but I thought that maybe it would help you to understand why I at least, think that Merlin is interesting and a valid part of Arthuriana.

[anne-arthur.livejournal.com]

As I've said above, it's probably worth trying to start at the beginning, if you can find a DVD or something. And you've made me curious about Kaamelott - I'll have to try and see if I can get hold of it. And your Gawain comic looks great - I've loved him since we read 'Sir Gawain and the Green Knight' at school (and he doesn't feature in 'Merlin') so I will find time to read it all!

It usually annoys me too, when people take something and reinvent it like this - the new Star Trek film is a case in point! Here, 'Merlin' takes a little bit more than just the names, I think - and some of the elements of the traditional story, like Arthur's conception or Mordred's, would be quite hard to include in what is basically a children's show! But I've always thought of the Arthurian canon as a sort of medieval fandom, with different authors rewriting the story to suit themselves, or inventing new knights if they didn't like any of the existing ones - so I'm relatively relaxed about even quite a radical re-imagining - provided that it is done well, which I think this is.

[sigune.livejournal.com]

But I've always thought of the Arthurian canon as a sort of medieval fandom, with different authors rewriting the story to suit themselves, or inventing new knights if they didn't like any of the existing ones

Oh, absolutely! It's a fandom complete with Gary Stus! :D It's difficult to argue one way or another about things which you'd expect to be basics - like, say, Mordred's parentage. In Malory Arthur is his father and in Geoffrey of Monmouth it's King Lot... What is canon? The challenge is to create a story with an inner coherence; it's clear that you can't ever get it all 'correct', because no single source can lay claim to being the ultimate version. I guess lots of people stick with Malory because his Morte is pretty complete in its scope. Pity he's so tough on poor Gawain. (But, okay, that's my own preference speaking *g*...) In any case, the variety of versions forms a wonderful playground!

I couldn't contain my curiosity and have ordered the first season of Merlin on Amazon... As for Kaamelott, English subtitling may be a problem. Do you read French? I'm quite certain that seasons one to three have only French subtitles (alas!). Four has (sometimes wonky) English ones. Five - I can check for you.

As for Gawain, I've adored him for years now, but it's only at the end of last year that I got the feeling that I had my story together. I'm having great fun writing and drawing it. I hope you'll enjoy it!

[anne-arthur.livejournal.com]

Sorry to take so long to reply - things have suddenly become very busy here! Yes, I do read French, and should be able to manage a French film with French subtitles. I will certainly investigate.

I hope 'Merlin' doesn't disappoint. Since you wrote, Morgause has appeared - she is Morgana's half sister, but Morgana doesn't know about her, and she clearly has some grudge against Uther and interest in Arthur - I suspect that she may turn out to be Arthur's half sister as well, the daughter of his mother and Morgana's father. And I do think that this version, though 'uncanonical' does have inner coherence and might potentially be going somewhere interesting.

I'm afraid I haven't got round to Gawain yet, but I hope to be able to do so soon!

[puckling.livejournal.com]

Okay, knowing what variations on the Arthur mythos that Merlin is pulling and then watching that vid is a bit odd, not going to lie.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Oh, I believe you! I hadn't seen any of the show before I saw the video, though, and (perhaps for that reason) I thought it very interesting and well done. And it's a great song.

BTW, seeing this video confirmed me in my desire to see the actual show. Why is it not available on DVD in the U.S.? Aargh!

[puckling.livejournal.com]

It's an absolutely lovely song and a vid that's proficient and well edited. Only in Merlin, Morgana isn't Mordred's mother and Arthur isn't his father and Morgana isn't the one who sets him against Arthur. So for me the cognitive dissonance is big here.

I guess this vid loses me a little because it's taking the admittedly very pretty images from Merlin and using them to tell a different version of the same story with out reflecting/commenting how their source material departs from traditional Arthurian legend and what's being said in the song. So on one hand I would call it a successful vid as it is well edited, with good clips and visuals, and does a very fine job of conveying the story which it wants to tell. But on the other, I think it could have been much more interesting if it were more ambitious in scope. Basically if it's going to play with the combination of traditional Arthuriana and Merlin I want it to be more like this vid (http://kiki-miserychic.livejournal.com/151843.html)* or this one (http://obsessive24.livejournal.com/247687.html) (only Morgana centric) or at least pick up on some of those ideas. Admittedly this is probably something that would only concern one if one knows the source and the variations it's playing with; going in cold it would probably matter a lot less in how one interacts with the vid. But I realize that a lot of what I'm saying is part of my own personal taste for more conceptual vids and my experience with Merlin and not actually a knock on the vid itself or what it was trying to achieve (which I think it did successfully).

How essential is it that it be on dvd/legal? Because I might be able to help with that

*there's a brief, nonexplict, and very much implied sex scene in that vid, which isn't for like, five seconds close to the very end, but I thought that I should note it just in case.